vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
111842-population-reality-vs-game-quality
Content ---- ---- ---- Well said.... So true, and yet so sad. In all reality no matter what Carbine does/doesn't do the game from this point out will pretty much be on life support. When you lose the majority of your launch players you rarely ever recover en mass. | |} ---- Here's a useful mantra for you in games and life both: "Other People Are Not Me." This means that other people want other things from games (and life) than you do. This doesn't make either of you wrong. But you should respect the choices of other people -- they have their reasons. The hard, cruel truth is that since Wildstar asks for a $15 sub, they need to deliver worth to players right now, not three months from now. $15 isn't a ton of money on an absolute scale, but it's too much to pay if you aren't having any fun. No company is entitled to anyone's cash on the grounds that they are trying hard and did some things right. Either the product is worth the asking price, or it's not worth the asking price, and that's a decision made by each consumer individually. You can decide to pony up cash on the idea that you hope the product can be improved and are willing to wager money on it, but you can't realistically expect anyone else to pay out if they aren't inclined to. This is all on Carbine. Either they offer a product people want to buy, at a price people are willing to pay, and they survive. Or they don't, and they die. Bitching that the customer isn't willing to pay what I want him to for my product is the main hobby of most businessmen. | |} ---- Its funny you bring that up..... that was the exact problem we ran into with release. The first time we did ST, it was a disaster. People disregarding telegraphs, paying absolutely no attention to positioning, not knowing anything about their characters or really how to even coax the best performance out of them. And I wont lie, we were all guilty of one or more of those issues. We wiped for an hour on the first boss in normal ST. So everybody's sitting there in vent, talking about how ridiculous it is, and how are we so terrible at this game..... and (its always the quiet ones too.) this lady we played with during WoW beta and through a lot of years pipes up in her southern belle accent.... "Maybe yall should stop playing like this is wow." You could hear a pin drop. Break time. Everyone hits the forums, starts reading up on amp specs, rotations, etc. The simple fact was, we walked in here all arrogant thinking this was going to be another gather and aoe fest. Not so much. Its embarrassing to admit that we more or less ignored what we knew was the right way, and tried to do things our way. Didn't work out so well. After that, it was much easier... wipes still happened on occasion... bad placement, someone doesn't move in time, etc.... but the amount of wipes significantly dropped and golds were no longer ridiculously difficult. We were just arrogant idiots. The harder content requires more coordination. It requires teamwork. And requires a desire to do these things without ego, or attitude. The problem isn't the content. The problem is us. As a whole gamers have become a very..... rigid, unfriendly, group. Competition has become toxic, and the games we play suffers for it. The simple fact is, this problem will follow us to every game we go to, it will infest every activity we undertake, until we as a group decide to excise it from us. Its something we should think about the next time we decide to take a potshot at someone. Or troll them. Or some group decides to kick a pug because they think they deserve more of a chance at loot, or whatever ethically horrific act we decide to undertake. I know I do. | |} ---- This. Our "job" as players is exactly what you described. Problem is, we are fulfilling our end of the bargain by playing the hell out of the game. Carbine, on the other hand, isn't honoring their part, although something tells me they're starting to wake up. | |} ---- ---- ---- Ahhh, but imagine how you would have felt if it would have ended in total failure with not even being able to down the first boss. That's what happened to me both times I tried dungeons. So, not such a great feeling for me, at all. | |} ---- ---- It's true. I do not know why Carbine did not anticipate the general mentality of the mob, these days. That is, many players want it done quickly and they want a shiny at the end. It = a daily grind or a dungeon run or whathaveyou. Maybe you're grinding Valor points, or here they're Elder Gems. Whatever. And really, this isn't a behavior restricted purely to "casuals" -- many "hardcores" want to "just get through it" when it comes to dungeons or dailies or whatever repeated activity they're involved in. Head on over to WoW and you'll see this at work today -- even truly talented players do not want a challenge when facing tedium, they just want it over with. WIldStar did not allow them to plow through it so easily. It also was too challenging for many new players, and that led to frustration for them as well. And I can't blame folks for getting frustrated when even with a great effort and a good group, they were not getting "Gold" and furthermore they were not getting decent loot. I would have told the devs to take a hike, too. This sort of design is indicative of a certain mentality at work, and this sort of thing seldom "shifts" within a company. Maybe it will now that they're bleeding subs... but too many aspects of too many gameplay systems reeked of "timesink" and "goldsink" here to have me, and many, think that there could be a brighter and less punishing future. | |} ---- Honestly, the key to success seems to be in finding a group of laid back people that will communicate. Even if its just in chat... (Heck I have typed in a novels worth of instructions on bosses for KV, ST, etc....) and then... and this is the key..... patience with people doing it for the first time. I never expect a group to down a boss with someone running it for the first time. Ideally I like to get as close as possible to see all the potential phases of a boss fight for that person to experience, because most often, second time is a charm. But the key has been, and almost always is.... patient people who are doing a dungeon run because they want to. Not for loot, not for medals, not for whatever... just for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. (and honestly, that's the only way I run adventures and dungeons.... loot, rep, etc.... are all just bonus. If I am not in the mood for a dungeon I bow out, or beg off. And If I wind up in a frustrating one, I don't vent on my fellow players. I discuss the fight, what went wrong, and ask if anyone has questions, suggestions or problems.... it works. But I am not everyone, and sadly you may have wound up in group that just wasn't in the right mindset.) They key is also to know when to suggest calling it. If the same mistakes are made over and over again, set a limit on the amount of attempts in a nice way. Stick to it, and thank everyone for coming and trying, and then leave. I wish you had a better experience. The one suggestion I know works, is to link up with a large guild that's got mellow people. Barring that, start making friends, talking to people in /whisper etc... get a feel for the type of person they are, and if they would be good for a run. Its mostly a networking issue at that point. Just getting to know the right people will make this game amazingly more entertaining. | |} ---- ---- This is pretty similar to my experiences in group PvE. In a game with such a steep learning curve, the community has seemingly -zero- tolerance for mistakes. Maybe this is a carry over from WoW where starter dungeons are easy well, because they're starter dungeons. Actually, I can't think of a game I've played in the last 12 years where I felt so punished by the community and the content. Not challenged. Punished. I deal with enough IRL, I don't want to deal with that from my entertainment. Luckily for Carbine, there's enough about Wildstar outside of group PVE that I keep my sub going, but I've lost that long term feeling. inb4 "DON'T ASK FOR NERFZ, DIRTY CASUAL". I'm not asking for the content to be easier. Only for the community to pull their heads out of their cupcakes and maybe MORE content to bridge the gap. | |} ---- ---- ---- I respect your opinion Tex. I disagree fundamentally that either of us can say what hundreds of other people are experiencing; but I don't doubt for a second a LOT of players are experiencing low player concurrency. What I dislike is the false leap from low player concurrency to low overall population that frequently occurs. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, but not their own facts. And Most certainly not invent facts based solely on anecdote when none are available from official sources. We can estimate, and ponder. But even my estimates are little more than reasonable possibilities. But I am seriously tired of the unsupported anecdotal statements of a few dozen individuals pushing a dialogue on a game that is played by 3-4 orders of magnitude more people. YMMV, but if I had a nickel for every instance where anecdotal perception of an issue was = to the ACTUAL issue... I would have zero nickels. As Mondo Zax would say: "separate the scientific truth from plausible falsehoods " | |} ---- I find it sad that you let other people's actions keep you from experiencing the game to its fullest. Dungeons are one of the most fun parts of the game, don't let the attitude of others keep you from it. Also, it confuses me that you say you want to lead your guild thru content, and then complain about people with bad attitudes. If you're always running with guildies, when do you encounter these people? | |} ---- I honestly can't point to hard numbers to support problems with the population. I don't have access to that. I can give you anecdotal evidence of what I have experienced in my time. I can also point to the server populations as being "low" during peak times when they were "med" before. Does that mean that there is a population problem? Eh...... A certain amount of "bleed off" is expected, and generally reaches a higher range than I think we as players would expect. People are generally always moving from one game to another, then back and off to another...etc. Its somewhat of an MMO dance.... where the goal is to capture players attention during the first few months to retain as many as possible. In that respect, no, I don't think we have a "problem" per se. However, what we do have is a plethora of servers with players spread out over way to many servers, often times giving the feeling that the worlds are deserted and that there is a population problem. This coupled with very real disillusionment to the games current state, or what many see as major problems tends to lend itself to the very negative feeling that the game is... "dying". I don't think that is necessarily the case here. I do think, we have our population spread out over too many servers and that needs to be addressed. It would be a perfect opportunity to resolve faction balance issues as well on both the pve and pvp servers. I also think, though, that dismissing it as not being a problem, is dangerous as well. Think of it this way.... Wildstar is a boat. Its taking on water. Its not enough to sink it. But if we ignore it, it will eventually sink it. Because lets face it, holes in the boat don't fix themselves. Solution? Pick everyone up in a helicopter and sink the boat with torpedoes from a submarine not very far away. Wait.... no.... What I meant was.... oh forget it, you get the idea. | |} ---- I think you mean "MAN THE BILGES! | |} ---- I believe its like eating comfort food to blame it all on fans of other games trying to bring down your favorite MMO even when there are legitimate issues plaguing the game. I bet all servers on low population just 2 months after release was also some nefarious plan by fans of this other MMO you keep talking about. | |} ---- I agree, but I disagree that the problem is sheer population. 1000 players playing 5 hours a day will seem much more 'alive' than 5,000 players playing for 30 minutes a day at different times which will seem 'dead'. I'm NOT suggesting there isn't a problem. There obviously is. But the problem proper is player concurrency (that dead feeling from having few players playing at the same time as you) which is related to, but not mutually dependent on sheer population. The overall population has demonstrably fallen by ~60%. but simply assuming that is the major source of the concurrency problem is, with out good evidence to support it, bad reasoning. Perhaps the difference is unimportant to the average player; but implementation wise it is VERY important to combat the underlying concurrency issues as well as increase player density in order to truly solve the first order issue; which is having more people playing at the same time you are. | |} ---- hit the nail on the head, I will admit being one of those players, w/little beta experience, w/raiding experience from WoW, GW2, & SWTOR I came to this game with the idea of raids and other endgame ambitions. Now I wouldn't call any of the games I listed as faceroll raids, but I wouldn't put them at W* level either. I seen the interaction between these players reaching for that hardcore level of dungeon runs, attunement, making role call, guild hopping once attuned, and the way mistakes were perceived by their fellow players...and said hell no, I play games for fun not for a headache. I never was server first, or in some number one guild, but usually found myself in steady raid teams that kept up til the next release of endgame, we laughed off wipes, passed each other loot, and eventually downed what the game had to offer....and it was fun. Making a game off nostalgia from the early 2000 is dumb, that overall generation from that genre is gone. We grew up, got married, bought a house, had kids, and careers....so you made it for this generation? a generation of mmo players in a saturated market of f2p/b2p and credit card loot. A focus of Hardcore was the biggest mistake for W*, and I'm sure will get flamed for this but Hardcore of this generation of gamers (including myself as a player) is a failed concept to expect enough revenue from the smallest percentage of players that are willing to put time in the Hardcore. There's plenty of hardcore console/pc RPG's to fill that void for the 1%, mmo's should be casual & pvp focused to reach success for the company and community. and NCsoft....if anyone here thinks a RP & Hardcore community going to carry this game to NCsoft expectations they are daydreaming. | |} ---- HA! This is what I am talking about, and thank you Naz. No problem is ever cut and dry as... "my server is dead." Well.. unless your server is dead. But I digress, lets regress. (get it... regress, it means... /sigh nevermind.) Concurrency brings about a good question in what is the proper way to alleviate the problem? If we just mass transfer people till we fill up the servers, will that in all actuality fix the problem? What about if we start getting a large influx of people, and wind up with huge server ques again? And if we open up those servers that we shut down, what happens to the people on them? I mean, will we actually get enough people for them not to feel like they are a ghost town? I mean, its kind of putting the horse before the cart, but realistically a business cant just plan for the present, they have to plan for the future as well. I guess, it would help if we knew what kind of technical solutions carbine had at its disposal. Im babbling again, aren't I? Yeah, I am... Ill show myself out. | |} ---- Okay, okay. I thought of something to "prove" the issue to you. Now again, it's anecdotal, but it's a demonstrable anecdote. PVP Battleground Queues. They are cross-realm. Meaning every server is represented, right? Because of that, assuming your "concurrency" theory is correct, then why are PVP queues taking longer and longer every day, at EVERY bracket. I PVP in every bracket. I have a level 10, a level 17, a level 35 and a level 50. That's pretty much every bracket, right? Okay. In the month following launch, the battleground pops were almost instant. As in, you finish one, queue back up, and in less than a minute (sometimes instantly!) you'd be back in another match. Last month, those queues started taking a couple of minutes to pop, non-peak periods naturally being slower. This weekend, during prime time, on a holiday weekend, I was getting 5-15 minute queues or longer. If it's just that we're all spread out and can't see each other, why aren't the queues popping as fast? If the last update brought back so many PVPers, why don't we have instant pops any more? I'll tell you why. Because there isn't enough total population left to have short queues. | |} ---- Nope, I think you put it a lot better than I ever could. :) do stick around! | |} ---- ---- Because PvP was, until very recently broken; and a lot of players (including myself) stopped doing it. I applaud the thought process Tex (and you will always have my utmost respect); but even if the population didn't go down by the 60% or so it has since launch, but people played for less time; we would still see longer PvP queues, because folks wouldn't be playing at the same times. Think about your example this way; unless the population went literally down to almost nothing across all servers; there should still be PLENTY of people queueing for PvP if everyone is playing for a long time each day. The fact that ques are longer suggests the people playing accross all servers aren't doing it at the same times / for long durations. As an anecdotal example; I'll log in on a Tuesday for 1 hour to do dailies, and maybe sit in BH for a little bit. If no guildies are around I'll log out and do something else after. Compare that to the 2 weeks after launch when I played almost 10 hours a day. It's really tricky to compare the honeymoon phase of a game post release to the disenchantment phase when many folks are playing less. I'm going to point to Aksu's post for this one, I think they did a great job explaining my sentiment more simply: The only other thing I'll say is some of the upcoming stuff appears like it could start to combat the concurrency issue at its core and at the population level. Frosts hint drop on new Tech sounds interesting. The amp/tier points will probably keep folks running content for longer; the solo dungeon + sweet cinematics will keep solo players engaged and lore junkies like me happy to have some cool solo content + story, the Defile will be a sweet addition, and the PvP fixes look to be drawing at least a handful of folks back. I hate to say we'll have to wait and see.. but I'm at least a little bit hopeful that within the next few months W* will get back to a good equilibrium state. | |} ---- I agree. The game requires you to be present, mentally and physically, to interact with the game, and be fluid enough in thought and action to account for randomness. That is the fun in it. That it is not the same encounter every single time. That no matter how you may.... say pull a boss to a corner, there is always going to be some measure of randomness that your tank or dps or healer will have to be fluid enough mentally and agile enough in reflexes to account for and respond to. Its not impossibly difficult, its just not... move to the left.... now move to the right...... check your debuff, and now switch sides..... ok, dps race.... more dots more dots, WTF ARE YOU DOING, GET OUT OF THE WHELPS!!! *cough cough* sorry, no idea where that came from. And I agree also that a lot of people are waiting for that patch or patches that addresses the gearing, the grind, etc. Once those issues are resolved, and say... dungeon gear becomes far more desirable than crafted gear, you will see a return of some people to the game. I also think that's why they are concentrating so hard on this patch to get right straight out of the gate. I am not entirely sure it will address everyones concerns right off the bat, but I think its meant to address a lot of them. At least I hope it is. I lack mindreading abilities, so yeah.... They could totally be waiting to implement this patch because we need nine more new shades of fecal brown. I think if they did.... I would probably laugh myself into a stroke. | |} ---- I turn with the keyboard, I always have and I have no issues with the game early. Then again I can use the strafe buttons. I'm not trying to be rude but I don't see how you can't dodge half of the telegraphs just using q and e unless you refuse to use them or are stupid. I just don't get it. | |} ---- ----